*nod* It really, really does. And, see -- not to say anything about your specific reaction, this is just a general observation I've noticed in previous rounds of this discussion -- this is the kind of thing that is, IMO, one of the most major points of disconnect whenever the discussion takes place. Group A (often, but not entirely, composed of women) mention that online harassment and threats of reprisal have made them fearful for their safety, or has caused them to curtail their (online or offline) behavior. Most everyone who's been online in any fashion for more than about, oh, ten minutes, has seen some forms of online harassment, chest-thumping, hyperbolic language, idle threats, etc -- things of the "I'm gonna hit you until candy comes out" kind of exaggeration. Group B, hearing a statement from a member of Group A to the effect of "online harassment has made me fear for my life", thinks said member of Group A is referring to the kind of harassment everyone sees, not realizing it's more systemic, more sinister, and more creepy than the usual chest-thumping. (Which, I mean, the usual chest-thumping is not all that great either, but it's not something that most people would consider credible threats.)
So, some members of Group B might think our member of Group A is just being hypersensitive, and make comments coming from that perspective, which leads to "you're just hysterical/oversensitive" type discussions -- which, when the member of Group A is a member of a historically-underprivileged group, has a lot of really ugly historical resonances. (Outside the scope of this comment, really, and I'm having trouble off the top of my head locating a good resource for why that type of discourse is so ugly, but Finally Feminism 101 would be where I'd look in depth -- maybe somebody else driving by would be able to offer a good resource there.) So of course our member of Group A thinks that our members of Group B is telling her that this kind of behavior is acceptable in the community, while most if not all of our member of Group B would possibly be horrified if they realized what was really going on.
This disconnect is one of the reasons why I am, ultimately, glad that these discussions are happening, even when they're personally tiresome or disheartening or exhausting, and it's why I'm so thankful for the many fierce and courageous women who have spoken up to detail their lived experience, and why I'm so thankful for the many supportive allied men (such as our host for this discussion!) who speak up to say no, it actually is like that, even if you don't see it. Whenever I personally wind up disheartened about "oh god, this conversation again?" I remember that I have been told at least a double dozen times that something I've said or done or shown has helped to convince someone else that there is a problem and help inspire them to act on it, and that's a really heartening feeling.
(And that's something that allied men can do that's really simple and easy, and helps so much -- you really have no idea how much -- in discussions of sexism in geek communities: just speak up and say "yes, I believe you, and yeah, everybody else, it really is that bad, and yes, this is not okay." It may feel like it's nothing big and nothing special, but hearing that at the right time has personally kept me going a lot of the time, and there's proven research stating that members of $group will hear things from other members of $group that they just won't hear from members of $notgroup.)
Power management, mobile and firmware developer on Linux. Security developer at Aurora. Ex-biologist. mjg59 on Twitter. Content here should not be interpreted as the opinion of my employer. Also on Mastodon.
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Date: 2011-10-31 09:00 am (UTC)So, some members of Group B might think our member of Group A is just being hypersensitive, and make comments coming from that perspective, which leads to "you're just hysterical/oversensitive" type discussions -- which, when the member of Group A is a member of a historically-underprivileged group, has a lot of really ugly historical resonances. (Outside the scope of this comment, really, and I'm having trouble off the top of my head locating a good resource for why that type of discourse is so ugly, but Finally Feminism 101 would be where I'd look in depth -- maybe somebody else driving by would be able to offer a good resource there.) So of course our member of Group A thinks that our members of Group B is telling her that this kind of behavior is acceptable in the community, while most if not all of our member of Group B would possibly be horrified if they realized what was really going on.
This disconnect is one of the reasons why I am, ultimately, glad that these discussions are happening, even when they're personally tiresome or disheartening or exhausting, and it's why I'm so thankful for the many fierce and courageous women who have spoken up to detail their lived experience, and why I'm so thankful for the many supportive allied men (such as our host for this discussion!) who speak up to say no, it actually is like that, even if you don't see it. Whenever I personally wind up disheartened about "oh god, this conversation again?" I remember that I have been told at least a double dozen times that something I've said or done or shown has helped to convince someone else that there is a problem and help inspire them to act on it, and that's a really heartening feeling.
(And that's something that allied men can do that's really simple and easy, and helps so much -- you really have no idea how much -- in discussions of sexism in geek communities: just speak up and say "yes, I believe you, and yeah, everybody else, it really is that bad, and yes, this is not okay." It may feel like it's nothing big and nothing special, but hearing that at the right time has personally kept me going a lot of the time, and there's proven research stating that members of $group will hear things from other members of $group that they just won't hear from members of $notgroup.)