Re: Default offerings, target audiences, and the future of Fedora
Eric (a fellow Fedora board member) has a post describing his vision for what Fedora as an end goal should look like. It's essentially an assertion that since we have no idea who our users are or what they want, we should offer them everything on an equal footing.
Shockingly enough, I disagree.
At the most basic level, the output of different Special Interest Groups is not all equal. We've had issues over the past few releases where various spins have shipped in a broken state, because the SIG responsible for producing them doesn't have the resources to actually test them. We're potentially going to end up shipping F20 with old Bluetooth code because the smaller desktops aren't able to port to the new API in time[1]. Promoting these equally implies that they're equal, and doing so when we know it isn't the case is a disservice to our users.
But it's not just about our users. Before I joined the Fedora project, I'd worked on both Debian and Ubuntu. Debian is broadly similar to the current state of Fedora - no strong idea about what is actually being produced, and a desire among many developers to cater to every user's requirements. Ubuntu's pretty much the direct opposite, with a strongly defined goal and a willingness to sacrifice some use cases in order to achieve that goal.
This leads to an interestingly different social dynamic. Ubuntu contributors know what they're working on. If a change furthers the well-defined aim of the project, that change happens. Moving from Ubuntu to Fedora was a shock to me - there were several rough edges in Fedora that simply couldn't be smoothed out because fixing them for one use case would compromise another use case, and nobody could decide which was more important[2]. It's basically unthinkable that such a situation could arise in Ubuntu, not just because there was a self appointed dictator but because there was an explicit goal and people could prioritise based on that[3].
Bluntly, if you have a well-defined goal, people are more likely to either work towards that goal or go and do something else. If you don't, people will just do whatever they want. The risk of defining that goal is that you'll lose some of your existing contributors, but the benefit is that the existing contributors will be more likely to work together rather than heading off in several different directions.
But perhaps more importantly, having a goal can attract people. Ubuntu's Bug #1 was a solid statement of intent. Being freer than Microsoft wasn't enough. Ubuntu had to be better than Microsoft products on every axis, and joining Ubuntu meant that you were going to be part of that. Now it's been closed and Ubuntu's wandered off into convergence land, and signing up to spend your free time on producing something to help someone sell phones is much less compelling than doing it to produce a product you can give to your friends.
Fedora should be the obvious replacement, but it's not because it's unclear to a casual observer what Fedora actually is. The website proudly leads with a description of Fedora as a fast, stable and powerful operating system, but it's obvious that many of the community don't think of Fedora that way - instead it's a playground to produce a range of niche derivatives, with little consideration as to whether contributing to Fedora in that way benefits the project as a whole. Codifying that would actively harm our ability to produce a compelling product, and in turn reduce our ability to attract new contributors even further.
Which is why I think the current proposal to produce three first-class products is exciting. Offering several different desktops on the download page is confusing. Offering distinct desktop, server and cloud products isn't. It makes it clear to our users what we care about, and in turn that makes it easier for users to be excited about contributing to Fedora. Let's not make the mistake of trying to be all things to all people.
[1] Although clearly in this case the absence of a stable ABI in BlueZ despite it having had a dbus interface for the best part of a decade is a pretty fundamental problem.
[2] See the multi-year argument over default firewall rules and the resulting lack of working SMB browsing or mDNS resolving
[3] To be fair, one of the reasons I was happy to jump ship was because of the increasingly autocratic way Ubuntu was being run. By the end of my involvement, significant technical decisions were being made in internal IRC channels - despite being on the project's Technical Board, I had no idea how or why some significant technical changes were being made. I don't think this is a fundamental outcome of having a well-defined goal, though. A goal defined by the community (or their elected representatives) should function just as well.
Shockingly enough, I disagree.
At the most basic level, the output of different Special Interest Groups is not all equal. We've had issues over the past few releases where various spins have shipped in a broken state, because the SIG responsible for producing them doesn't have the resources to actually test them. We're potentially going to end up shipping F20 with old Bluetooth code because the smaller desktops aren't able to port to the new API in time[1]. Promoting these equally implies that they're equal, and doing so when we know it isn't the case is a disservice to our users.
But it's not just about our users. Before I joined the Fedora project, I'd worked on both Debian and Ubuntu. Debian is broadly similar to the current state of Fedora - no strong idea about what is actually being produced, and a desire among many developers to cater to every user's requirements. Ubuntu's pretty much the direct opposite, with a strongly defined goal and a willingness to sacrifice some use cases in order to achieve that goal.
This leads to an interestingly different social dynamic. Ubuntu contributors know what they're working on. If a change furthers the well-defined aim of the project, that change happens. Moving from Ubuntu to Fedora was a shock to me - there were several rough edges in Fedora that simply couldn't be smoothed out because fixing them for one use case would compromise another use case, and nobody could decide which was more important[2]. It's basically unthinkable that such a situation could arise in Ubuntu, not just because there was a self appointed dictator but because there was an explicit goal and people could prioritise based on that[3].
Bluntly, if you have a well-defined goal, people are more likely to either work towards that goal or go and do something else. If you don't, people will just do whatever they want. The risk of defining that goal is that you'll lose some of your existing contributors, but the benefit is that the existing contributors will be more likely to work together rather than heading off in several different directions.
But perhaps more importantly, having a goal can attract people. Ubuntu's Bug #1 was a solid statement of intent. Being freer than Microsoft wasn't enough. Ubuntu had to be better than Microsoft products on every axis, and joining Ubuntu meant that you were going to be part of that. Now it's been closed and Ubuntu's wandered off into convergence land, and signing up to spend your free time on producing something to help someone sell phones is much less compelling than doing it to produce a product you can give to your friends.
Fedora should be the obvious replacement, but it's not because it's unclear to a casual observer what Fedora actually is. The website proudly leads with a description of Fedora as a fast, stable and powerful operating system, but it's obvious that many of the community don't think of Fedora that way - instead it's a playground to produce a range of niche derivatives, with little consideration as to whether contributing to Fedora in that way benefits the project as a whole. Codifying that would actively harm our ability to produce a compelling product, and in turn reduce our ability to attract new contributors even further.
Which is why I think the current proposal to produce three first-class products is exciting. Offering several different desktops on the download page is confusing. Offering distinct desktop, server and cloud products isn't. It makes it clear to our users what we care about, and in turn that makes it easier for users to be excited about contributing to Fedora. Let's not make the mistake of trying to be all things to all people.
[1] Although clearly in this case the absence of a stable ABI in BlueZ despite it having had a dbus interface for the best part of a decade is a pretty fundamental problem.
[2] See the multi-year argument over default firewall rules and the resulting lack of working SMB browsing or mDNS resolving
[3] To be fair, one of the reasons I was happy to jump ship was because of the increasingly autocratic way Ubuntu was being run. By the end of my involvement, significant technical decisions were being made in internal IRC channels - despite being on the project's Technical Board, I had no idea how or why some significant technical changes were being made. I don't think this is a fundamental outcome of having a well-defined goal, though. A goal defined by the community (or their elected representatives) should function just as well.
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(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)CoreOS as an alternative
(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 06:24 pm (UTC)(link)The goal being that the there's the Linux kernel with systemd.
Gnome sits atop that with wayland and apps in its own container and apps are spun out of that?
That's a beautiful and modular vision right there.
Re: CoreOS as an alternative
Re: CoreOS as an alternative
(Anonymous) 2013-08-29 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)http://mattdm.org/fedora/next/#20
http://mattdm.org/fedora/next
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/186323.html
Ring 0: "just enough OS" == not self-hosting aka minimal-cloud-slash-vGuest-fedora
Ring 1: "fedora neo-core" == @standard + @core, 330-or-430 'named'-SRPMs-or-pkgs (1800-or-3915 actual)
Ring 2: "option(al) stacks" == x/wayland/gnome/kde/xfce, mysql/postgres/mariadb, perl5/perl6/py2/py3/ruby1/ruby2/oraJava/openJdk
Ring 3: "enduser applications" == gedit/vim, libreoffice/thunderbird/pidgin, eclipse/netbeans/subversion/emacs... the proposal suggests being able to install straight from git repo (at enduser/spin option), not just from yum repo
Where do I find the actual list of those 430-named-3915-actual packages? No hyperlinks in his talk or his email to current fedora packaging-documentation....
Also, at first glance, I'm against non-RPM packaging like RubyGems, because (as the author of the slides points out) they don't even do simple anti-malware verification. Better to have 99% of ruby gems automagically-available inside an rpm-wrapper... with fedoraProject digisig and fedora quality-standards applied to all 'approved' gems... than to "extend the trust boundary" wholesale to 100% of rubygems.org website contents, as the proposal suggests. Haven't looked into this problem deeply though, so take this paragraph with a grain of salt. (Have also never heard of CoreOS, for that matter.)
the 330->1800 problem
(Anonymous) 2014-02-12 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)Re: CoreOS as an alternative
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 03:52 am (UTC)(link)Re: CoreOS as an alternative
(Anonymous) 2014-11-04 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)Sage goes in all fields, cancer
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(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 06:49 pm (UTC)(link)Whenever I file a new bug in Ubuntu, there's no guarantee that it's going to be fixed, but at least somebody takes looks at it and tries to help.
No matter what the plans are for the distro, if the support for it is lacking, it won't matter which use cases are covered.
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(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)My Fedora bug experience is very good
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 06:01 pm (UTC)(link)There was a lot of attention to the bug, and Fedora developers resolved it very quickly, even though the trouble was with the upstream (the Linux kernel).
It was a great experience that, for me, instilled a lot of faith in Fedora.
Time to repair.
(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)When Fedora 17 reached end-of-life, the Bugs that are release independent got wiped. For most of them, I promoted them to F18, then to F19
Fedora relies on volunteers mainly to do the testing and reporting. There is no central clearing house that redistributes the bug reports to Gnome, kde, Linux, Xfce, etc.
Moreover, there is no ageing of bug reports, so that older ones get raised in priority.
For maximum benefit to users, the quick fix bugs should be highest in priority, with those deemed to be longer in fix time, below, and major effort bugs lowest in priority. The idea, as it is done in every industry, is to satisfy the most users by not respecting FIFO.
Re: Time to repair.
(Anonymous) 2013-08-23 02:19 am (UTC)(link)https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/bugs/kernel
It is huge, and yet a LOT of bugs are assigned to someone. What I'd like is to every bug to have a fair chance of being looked at. I don't mean fixed or triaged, just looked at.
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(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 04:03 am (UTC)(link)Huge numbers of bugs like this still exist, and no one knows, because of some utterly moronic logic that if no one has done any Bugzilla housekeeping recently, it's unimportant. How the fuck can you keep a list of known issues with such a ridiculous triaging system?
Agree
(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)Fedora should have a great cloud product. It should have a great server product. The desktop should continue to be a great product. You can do the cloud/server stuff right now, but the project should be making a public commitment to those things - and should commit to and excellent fedup experience long-term too imho (although obviously there are various other issues there) which should work with each product.
With those solid products in place, I think it would actually be easier to do stable spins, not harder. I'm sure objectively it would be a lot easier to promote and grow Fedora, involve people, and also cut down some of the silly arguments about holding back some improvements because of some minor piece of software it impacts.
Re: Agree
(Anonymous) 2013-08-23 01:05 am (UTC)(link)Re: Agree
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 04:07 am (UTC)(link)Re: Agree
(Anonymous) 2013-08-26 10:10 am (UTC)(link)Re: Agree
(Anonymous) 2013-08-26 10:08 am (UTC)(link)Ubuntu's narrow focus
(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 07:50 pm (UTC)(link)Even things like its update applet were good steps forward. Of course in the intervening years a lot of Ubuntu's lead has been reduced. Other distros adopted methods of startup that are just as fast, the mainline kernel has absorbed lots of out of tree drivers, startup splash screens are common, media keys often work (thanks mjg59!) NTP is set by default, live CDs are defacto, multiple releases in common place...
Now I need is a distro that has a super cut down cloud image that is compatible with virtual machines. The more things change...
Re: Ubuntu's narrow focus
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 04:10 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-22 09:38 pm (UTC)(link)Thoughts
(Anonymous) 2013-08-23 01:42 am (UTC)(link)I don't think this is fair judgment. In the "old days" you had PC or Mac and you could call it "smart device". Because average consumer (yes your friends included) used it you could give them one of the GNU/Linux based distribution to install and use it on his/her hardware.
What are your friends using today? Smart phones and maybe smart tablet and smart PC or Mac for sure. In a year or two they will probably be using smart TV won't they...
Why wouldn't you be appealed to give your friends alternative to default OS something in the range of GNU/Linux? A GNU/Linux distribution tailored for their hardware and up to your liking.
There might be valid concerns/issues you might have concerning Ubuntu but having the possibility to offer your friends a way to install GNU/Linux based distribution on their smart phones/tablets is certainly not one of them!
And isn't that the reason GnomeShell ended up the way it ended up? Mobile devices? Convergence? First priority project should probably be making GnomeShell more usable on the desktop and on mobile because currently it lacks both! Unity does slightly better job here probably because as you said there is a common goal and they are working exclusively on it to achieve this but when it comes to GnomeShell every critic is dismissed as not founded but the truth is currently GnomeShell is not fitted to be run on desktops/mobile devices and fixing this should be priority. Bluetooth stack can wait a bit longer it newer managed to be "rock solid" in the first place and we are used to it and accepted it but when somebody start trolling with the whole shell well then don't expect to become direct replacement for Ubuntu just because some folk don't like how Canonical is acting lately to do their thing!
Re: Thoughts
I'm not sure a convergence a la GNOME Shell makes sense -- the most successful execution in this category is probably OS X/iOS, and notice that they ship the OS X-based iOS *first*, and only gradually tailor OS X later to make the user experience more consistent.
So yes, making the default end-user-friendly is a good idea, but I think "confusing" features should only be hidden by default, not yanked out altogether, and only if advanced configuration tools like gnome-tweak-tool and dconf-editor become first-class supported apps. Otherwise we're chasing a user segment that doesn't exist in sufficient numbers yet.
And someone better do something about GNOME Shell's graphics stack. I've given up using it on a top-of-the-line 2013 Dell ultrabook because it just gobbles up RAM and CPU cycles like crazy. (Yes, it's using an Intel graphics chipset)
Re: Thoughts
(Anonymous) 2013-08-23 10:16 am (UTC)(link)It does not matter how often people repeat this there is no evidence to support this broad claim. People are not replacing their PCs with smartphones (and neither tablets) what happens is that more smartphones and tablets are sold then PCs. That does not mean that people throw away their PCs and use them instead.
Mostly use them in addition to their PCs. People tend to not buy new PCs anymore unless the old one breaks because there is no reason to do so. They consider their current hardware "good enough" for their tasks, so no need to upgrade. So the saved money is spent elsewhere (ex. tablets).
Smartphones otoh are mostly replacing traditional cell phones not PCs.
(Note: PCs in the above text includes laptops and Macs).
Re: Thoughts
(Anonymous) 2013-08-25 05:43 pm (UTC)(link)This doesn't change anything u still need GNU/Linux distribution(s) to recommend to your friends to use on tables/phones. It's the same story as it was and still is with PCs and Macs. What changed is devices list got longer and that is a good thing.
Re: Thoughts
Re: Thoughts
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 04:16 am (UTC)(link)Re: Thoughts
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)They are not that kind of an upstream ATM everybody would like them to be but they will get there eventually. And who knows Fedora might use Mir in the future...
Phones vs Desktop, why should it be less compelling?
(Anonymous) 2013-08-23 07:15 am (UTC)(link)I don't follow you here: both parts of your statement can apply both to phones and desktop: contributing to a Linux distribution which can either be pre-installed on computers sold at a shop, or installed on a server with commercial goals is "spend your free time on producing something to help someone sell computers/make money using your software", isn't it?
And on the other hand, most non-Canonical people who work on Ubuntu Touch do so because they want to produce a product they can give to their friends (as you can install Ubuntu Touch on many devices sold with Android, the same way you can install Fedora on many computers sold with Microsoft Windows).
You might have a point if Canonical was selling its own phone hardware and prevented/discouraged other phone producers from using Ubuntu Touch, but that's not the case.
Am I missing something?
Re: Phones vs Desktop, why should it be less compelling?
(Anonymous) 2013-08-29 11:56 am (UTC)(link)As for your take on Fedora, no, you aren't missing much -- mjg is complaining that Ubuntu is becoming a way to push Ubuntu Phones (with one touchscreen UI to rule them all ... win8-slash-iOS anyone?). But he's kinda quiet about the *financial* purpose behind Fedora, which is to act as a test-bed for later RHEL releases. In particular, the main reason IMPO to want an Official Fedora Server-flavored distro is to try and displace CentOS in the webhosting world -- the free-as-in-beer RHEL clone. (Ubuntu LTS is an attempt to displace Debian, in much the same role... and unlike RHEL/CentOS, nowadays Ubuntu LTS upgrades their kernel every six months, staying one release behind Ubuntu non-LTS. And in fact, a Fedora-server flavor would have as a *second* big purpose: the ability to compete on equal footing with Ubuntu now-with-rolling-kernel-upgrades-LTS.)
Anyways, I'm sure that soon Fedora will soon be offering a server-oriented flavor, featured prominently on their main site. Whether this is merely a way to combat Ubuntu LTS, or is in fact also aimed squarely at boosting RHEL whilst beating down CentOS, will depend on what options the enduser of the Fedora Server is offered when their security-patches dry up, and their installed Fedora version is EOL. If the list is just 1) upgrade to Fedora N+1, or 2) upgrade to current RHEL, then clearly Fedora Server is a lock-in play, intended to boost RedHat finances, pure and simple. Compare with Lenovo BIOS whitelisting of their own wifi chipsets only, albeit less blatant/nasty, since the Fedora-Server upgrades-or-crossgrade *can* be done manually (no firmware mods required).
On the other hand, if the list *also* includes 3) crossgrade to CentOS, 4) crossgrade to SciLinux, or maybe even 5) crossgrade to Ubuntu LTS, then I'm all for a good Fedora Server release! It will help people that 'need' the latest and greatest version of php/mysql/whatever for their new web project... and when their now-year-month-old project is a going concern, where server stability & security is more critical than the latest version-hotness, they will have a clean pathway to move onto a more stable rhel/centos/scilin platform, which by then will prolly have the necessary daemon-versions available in the repo (if not stock then at least EPEL/rpmFusion).
And hey, why not offer Ubuntu LTS as a crossgrade, too? It will be a gesture of solidarity by the fedora/redhat folks, in the face of a quickly-fragmenting linux community. For that matter, go ahead and offer a crossgrade to Oracle EL, too, and Debian Stable. (I'd stop short of putting in a radio-button that offers to downgrade the webserver to Win2k8 ... but for the sake of completeness, you *can* run php and apache on that OS, not to mention redhat's own cygwin, so....)
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(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 04:20 am (UTC)(link)IME? Is that "in my experience"? I seriously doubt you have much.
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(Anonymous) 2013-09-21 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
I know what Fedora is
As far as what Fedora users and developers think is a success, I don't know.
Spins
(Anonymous) 2013-08-24 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)Due to trouble with 3D acceleration with my newish AMD APU's graphics component in both the open Radeon and closed Catalyst drivers, GNOME Shell really doesn't work, so I've turned to Xfce.
Re: Spins
Fedora and lack of enthusiam
(Anonymous) 2013-08-25 10:09 am (UTC)(link)Re: Fedora and lack of enthusiam
(Anonymous) 2013-08-25 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)I want newer packages but don't want to go through what it takes to build and maintain an Arch system.
That puts me in the Fedora camp.
Fedora is an echo chamber
(Anonymous) 2013-08-27 01:48 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Fedora is an echo chamber
(Anonymous) 2013-08-29 12:20 pm (UTC)(link)But truth be told, I'm thinking that your worry that Microsoft has a death-grip on the enterprise through their exchange server is a bit out-dated. I'd be more concerned about gmailEnterprise + googleVoice + chromeOSserverEdition, than I would be about outlook + skype + win2k12, in terms of being threats to the viability of corporate-desktop Linux.
Did your company actually use RHEL6 on the desktops, or was it just a server-side thing to run the datacenter? Since it sounds like everybody was using Outlook clients, presumably the latter. But that observation ties back in with the best goals for Fedora flavors: methinks we need to have a strong focus on the CorporateDesktopFedora flavor (which currently does not even exist that I can tell), which supports central IT out of the box (including a powershell port), which tightly integrates with *both* FreeIPA as well as ActiveDir servers, which can cleanly accept GroupPolicy security constraints as well as SeLinux config, and which has all the WindowsPro bells and whistles (image-backup & drive crypto & proper SMB & whatnot).
FedoraCorporateDesktop flavor would then be able to compete head to head with Win8 clients... and FedoraCorporateTabletAndPhone flavor would not be far behind.
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